P R O C E E D I N G S

[In the Superior Court of Gwinnett County, Lawrenceville,

Georgia; 9:00 a.m., Saturday, August 26, 1995; STATE OF GEORGIA v. MICHAEL HAROLD CHAPEL, 93-B-1818-6; Criminal Jury Trial, Judge Fred A. Bishop, Jr., Presiding.]

THE COURT:  Would you approach the bench, please?

[Counsel approached the bench and the following conference ensued.]

THE COURT:  The court reporter indicated this morning that she thought there was a discrepancy in one part or one paragraph of the transcript from the tape.  At what part is that, Mary?

THE REPORTER:  The phrase that's missing is on Page 76, Line 19.  The sentence in which it starts is on 18, 'But as they proceed up the road.'  The phrase that's missing is, I think it's 'a patrol car pulled out.'

MR. DAVIS:  It's on the tape but not on the transcript?

MR. PORTER:  It's labeled as unintelligible on the transcript.

MS. ROGAN:  No.  This is the transcript.  We're on 76.

THE REPORTER:  No.   No.

THE COURT:  All right.  And that's on Page 76, Line --

MR. DAVIS:  19?

MS. ROGAN:  Line 19, yeah.

THE REPORTER:  'Up the road' comma, and since I don't have the video, it was something like 'a patrol car pulled out.'  It's on my original disk unless something was lost in the conversion process.  If I could check --

THE COURT:  Okay.

THE REPORTER:  -- someone's transcript of the statement.

MR. DAVIS:  It may have been that when we created draft one, there was some stuff that got taken out of the transcript that when I went back and compared transcripts, one of the rulings the Court had made before, it had not been ordered out by the Court, so when we were creating draft 2, we attempted to put all that stuff back into the transcript that had not been ruled out.

THE COURT:  Okay.

THE REPORTER:  That's the portion I think I saw that had been retyped or somehow --

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, does it fit between on Line 19 between 'road' and 'whips up on' the   transcript?

MS. ROGAN:  Uh-huh.  Right.

MR. PORTER:  -- and the words you think aren't there are --

THE REPORTER:  It's like 'a patrol car pulled out' or pulls out, and I could go check my disk.

THE COURT:  But you're saying it goes like 'up the road, a patrol car pulls out and whips up' from there.

THE REPORTER:  Comma a patrol car pulls out comma whips up the road.

THE COURT:  What's there is right but it's like pulls out is missing?

THE REPORTER:  No.

MS. ROGAN:  'The patrol car pulls out' is what's missing.

THE REPORTER:  The phrase 'the patrol car pulls out.'

THE REPORTER:  Yeah.

MR. DAVIS:  I think -- my guess is that what happened was that when I put the material back in to draft two that had not been ordered out by the Court, we probably did not put that line back in.  I think it was probably removed on draft one.

THE COURT:  Is there one line missing or two or three words?

THE REPORTER:  One phrase, like maybe six words, four, five, six words, something like that.

THE COURT:  Okay.

THE REPORTER:  And when we take a break, I can get those words.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, let's see --

MR. PORTER:  We're past there, Judge, I mean --

THE REPORTER:  If you have a copy of your transcript --

MR. PORTER:  But the point of it is that the Court's given instructions that the transcript is only for the purpose of assisting them in listening to the tape.

THE COURT:  All right.  Yeah.  Why don't we, at this point, proceed on with it.  At the next recess, pull a copy of it and let's see what's there and if it's -- I mean, they're listening and they're reading and if it's anything that needs to be addressed, fine.  If not, fine.  It sounds innocuous to me.

MS. ROGAN:  Right.  It also sounds like it's along the lines of material that we've previously requested to be redacted and that has been redacted because the evidence didn't actually reflect that that's what the witnesses said they saw.

MR. MOORE:  It was clear on the tape.  I heard it and remember thinking at the time that it wasn't anything important.

THE REPORTER:  I just felt like I needed to say something.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, if anything, its removal or inclusion probably at this point may work to the detriment of the state to a certain extent, and I'm willing to waive that defect in the transcript.

THE COURT:  Well, why don't we, at the next recess, pull a copy of the -- or pull the unredacted transcript and see what's missing, and then we'll just come back to it.

MS. ROGAN:  Okay.

THE COURT:  Okay.

[Bench conference concluded.]

MR. PORTER:  There is one other matter I'd like to put on the record.

THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, this morning, and I have already made disclosure of this fact to Mr. Moore and  Ms. Rogan, but based on Mr. Moore's request yesterday and our discussions afterwards, the gist of the defense request is based -- is that if the state has documents or evidence which is of a original nature as opposed to the derivative nature which I described as trial preparation that the defense cannot get access to, then I've agreed to provide that.

          And in light of that conversation, I have made the following disclosure this morning.  In preparation of a witness for potentially calling to trial, we interviewed Officer Brian Reddy.  During that conversation, we inquired of him about any firearms that he owned.  And at the time, he indicated he only owned certain firearms; and, Your Honor, I don't recall the specifics. 

But at a later date, he informed us that he owned an RG .38.  He was requested to bring that weapon to us, to my office, and it was immediately delivered to the crime lab, where it was compared with the bullets in this case.  It was conclusively excluded as the murder weapon in this case by Kelly Fite.  No written report has been generated.

          Your Honor, I agreed -- and this was within the last five to six days, and I have disclosed this information.  It is not within the ability of the defense to get in any other way, and I feel that we had no intention of introducing the evidence.  As far as we were concerned, it was not exculpatory.  But given the events of the last few days and the fact that Mr. Moore has questioned witnesses about the whereabouts of Brian Reddy, in the interest of full disclosure, I am making that disclosure on the record.  There is no documentation.  There is no written report that I can give.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Is Kelly Fite going to -- is he going to testify?

MR. PORTER:  He's going to testify about evidence that we have, yes, sir.

THE COURT:  All right.

MR. PORTER:  I also -- I have the weapon in the evidence room at my office.  I will make it available to any experts for the defense that wish to analyze it.  Your Honor, I feel that I'm disclosing as fast as I can disclose once I receive the information.

THE COURT:  All right.  Okay.  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, Mr. Porter did disclose that to us this morning.

THE COURT:  All right.  Is there any further request from the defendant?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, we had discussed this yesterday.  I believe Mr. Porter indicated he has no other evidence that we didn't have access to also.

          THE COURT:  All right.  And Kelly Fite will be here and you'll have the opportunity to cross-examine him.  All right.  Anything else, Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  Not that I'm aware of.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore, anything else this morning?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Are we ready to proceed on with the tape, then?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, Your Honor.  I believe the tape is cued up and ready to go.

THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's going to be a couple of hours or so, you anticipate?

MR. PORTER:  I believe it's about two hours worth of tape.

THE COURT:  Okay.  And then we'll have witnesses to continue on with the balance of the day?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, there may be some technical problems along the -- not problems, but things we have to work out between tapes two and three related to the evidentiary questions that we dealt with yesterday.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  And we are also preparing the remainder of the transcript with the, at this time, redactions, which, if the case goes to the penalty phase, what we'll do is prepare another transcript of just those portions of tape number three, and those relate to the possession of the M-16 rifle.

THE COURT:  All right.  Let's see now.  Do we have -- insofar as the transcripts the jurors have, at this point, do they have everything to follow?  We removed a portion.  Of course, that didn't include the reference to the M-16, I believe.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.  We removed from Page 124 to 136.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  We are in the process of preparing substitute pages with the reference to the M-16 deleted, and we would deliver those to the jurors.

THE COURT:  All right.  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  At the appropriate time, we will reintroduce the transcript of just that language     that we're going to --

THE COURT:  At what point in time do you contemplate providing those to the jurors?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I should have those well before tape three starts.  We're in the process of making them now.

THE COURT:  All right.  How long will it be before we come to tape three, do you think?

MR. PORTER:  An hour and a half.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Almost two hours.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  We'll just take a recess at that point, then, and get the tapes ready and also add the transcripts so that those are complete, then.  All right.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, to give you an idea, I wasn't really paying attention to the time, but we covered in tape one 77 pages of the transcript, and I'm looking for where my note says that tape three begins.  We may not have it in here, but that will give the Court at least an idea.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Anything else,    Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  No, sir.  We're ready to go.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  We're ready, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Bring the jurors back, please.

[The jurors were escorted to the courtroom.]

THE COURT:  Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Everybody okay this morning?  I believe we'll be commencing at Page 77 of the transcript and continuing on with the tape.  We have about two hours or so left on the tape, and then we'll be proceeding with the other witnesses as part of the state's case this morning and then the balance of the afternoon.  Go ahead, please.

[Whereupon, playing of the videotape two commenced.]

THE COURT:  At this point we'll take about ten minutes to give the jurors a chance to stretch their legs.  If you'll leave your pens, pads, and notes, your transcripts in your seats, then we'll recommence -- would you approach the bench, Mr. Allen

[The bailiff approached the bench and a brief conference was held off the record.]

THE COURT:  I think what we'll do at this point is take a fifteen minute recess and get a cup of coffee if you like and smoke a cigarette if you like, and then we'll be pushing on until about noon without any lengthy break.  We'll take fifteen minutes at this point.  If you'll go with the bailiff, please.

[The jury was excused from the courtroom for the recess.]

THE COURT:  Anything else at this point,          Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.

          THE COURT:  We'll take fifteen minutes.

[Break taken]

THE COURT:  The notes from jurors, I've given to the court reporter, and they're being marked as R-1, 2, 3, 4, and so on.  They're part of the record, and you can take a look at them if you'd like, miscellaneous notes, like speak up or whatever, I can't hear or whatever.  But anyway, they're all part of the record. Is the state ready?

MR. PORTER:  The state's ready, Your Honor.  I would -- I don't know how far we are from the end of this tape.  I really haven't been keeping track of the counter.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  At the time this tape ends, because tape three is going to require some manipulation in terms of fast forward and we have to provide another transcript, we're going to request another break.

THE COURT:  All right.  Whenever we get to that point, we'll just take a recess for however long it takes and, hopefully, that will be short and then we'll proceed on.

MR. PORTER:  Hopefully, it will be short.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Anything else at this point, Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Bring the jury back, please.

[The jury returned to the courtroom and proceedings resumed, as follows.]

THE COURT:  We're going to have to change the tapes shortly.  I'm not sure exactly how long that's going to be, but we'll proceed with the next tape change.  At that point, we'll take as short a recess as it takes in order to change the tape.  We'll can set back after the third tape and then that will complete the tape.  Go ahead, please.

[Whereupon, playing of videotape two recommenced.]

THE COURT:  We'll take ten minutes or soon thereafter as we have the equipment set back up to recommence with the next tape.  If you'll leave your pens, pads, and notes in your seats, they'll be waiting on you when you return along with the transcripts.  If you'll go with the bailiff, please.

[The jury was excused from the courtroom for the recess.]

THE COURT:  How long do you think tape three will run, Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, there's about twenty-three minutes of actual playing time.  Mr. Davis informs me that based on the situation with the evidence that is not to go the jury at this point, we have -- since it has not been edited out of the tape, there's a sixty-four second delay at five minutes into the tape that runs to six minutes and ten seconds.  And then at eight minutes and twenty-two seconds into the tape, there is a sixty-seven second delay.  There is no counter on the edited version so it's going to be very, very difficult in the presence of the jury to actually stop the tape, fast forward it, and restart it.

THE COURT:  All right.  These are not edited out.  These are where you want to stop, cue it up to the next spot, and then play it.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  How far apart are those, do you know?

MR. PORTER:  They're about two minutes apart.  They're five minutes into the tape, then two minutes apart, and then --

THE COURT:  All right.  And I don't suppose we'll do that without sending the jury out.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we can find no practical way this morning, between eight o'clock this morning and noontime today to do that.

THE COURT:  All right.  We'll just send them out for a couple of minutes and cue it up.  Just make sure it's in the right place.

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.  Then, Your Honor, there's approximately a five-minute delay -- excuse me, twenty minutes and eleven second delay which we propose to fast forward through.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Then there's an eighteen minute and fifteen second delay which we propose to fast forward through.  Those are relatively easy to identify because  -- and we can do that while the jury is here.

THE COURT:  Okay.  So we'll need to send the jury out twice.  And the others, we'll just pause while you turn the volume off and fast forward.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, the volume doesn't work while it's being fast forward, so all we have to do is fast forward.

THE COURT:  Well, I know, but if you stop anyplace along the way, then it's --

MR. PORTER:  Well, that's why I said that we can tell, Your Honor, -- the reason we're fast forwarding through, and it's by agreement of counsel, is there are silent photographs of the defendant seated in a chair.

THE COURT:  Okay.  So if you stop, it won't matter.

MR. PORTER:  We can wind through because as soon as you see the other person come in, you can go back to regular speed.

THE COURT:  Okay.  But you'll probably have overshot it, in which case you'll need to back up.  My point is if you go too far, then you'll have to back it up, and if you're backed up to where you don't want to play, then all you're going to have is that silent picture?

MR. PORTER:  That's correct.

THE COURT:  In which case, it won't matter.

MR. PORTER:  It won't matter.  That's correct.

          THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. DAVIS:  Your Honor, one point of clarification.  On tape three, there is no video whatsoever.  There is only audio.  And for the two longer pauses, there's absolutely nothing going on during the time of the pauses, so even if we stopped in the wrong place, they will hear nothing.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All of the next twenty minutes or so is going to be pure audio; is that what you're saying?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  That's based on the previous ruling of the Court because it has to do with the portion where the defendant changed clothes.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, that's correct and what we agreed.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MS. ROGAN:  Is there still a time?

MR. DAVIS:  No.

MS. ROGAN:  If the time's not there, how are you going to know where on the tape?

MR. DAVIS:  I'm going to try to make the counter on the tape on the VCR work.

MS. ROGAN:  Okay.

MR. DAVIS:  If I can get the counter up and running on the VCR, then I'll attempt --

MS. ROGAN:  Okay.  I just didn't know how else you'd tell where on the tape you wanted to be.

THE COURT:  During the portion that you're fast forwarding where the jury is in, is any of that --

MR. PORTER:  There's no --

THE COURT:  -- if there is a pause, a stop, such that sound comes on, the jury hears it, is there anything -- any of that that's objectionable or is all of that being fast forwarded, simply a picture, just a picture of somebody sitting there?

MR. PORTER:  There is no picture, Your Honor.

MS. ROGAN:  There's no picture and no audio.

MR. PORTER:  There is no sound.

MR. DAVIS:  There is no picture.  Any sounds that we came to if I did not stop in the right place that would be admissible under the Court's previous rulings.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  My concern is if we stop somewhere along the way and there's parts ruled out that then come in by virtue of either sound or --

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor, we don't --

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. DAVIS:  As long as we can get by the two short deletions early in the tape, then we will not have that problem.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Moore, do you plan on using any of the tape during cross-examination of the witness?

MR. MOORE:  I don't intend to play it again, Your Honor, but I do intend to use the transcript to cross- examine the witness.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, my question is once we get through with this and we remove the equipment, you won't be needing -- the state won't be needing it insofar as any cross-examination or replays?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.  I don't intend to replay it.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  We'll take -- how long do you think we need?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we have to distribute the corrected transcripts also.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Allen, if you'll do the transcripts insofar as -- we're going to add, let's see.  At this point, it's purely a matter of addition to the back of each transcript; right?

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Let's do that now.       Mr. Allen, if you'll add those to each of the transcripts.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we have given defense counsel the three pages that were changed to replace and they're a complete set, but what we have for the jury is a new set of Pages 124 through 136.

THE COURT:  All right.  So replace pages of Page 124 through 136 --

MS. ROGAN:  120 --

MR. PORTER:  124.

THE COURT:  124 through 136.

MS. ROGAN:  136, okay.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor --

THE COURT:  All right.  And that should be through the end; correct?

MR. PORTER:  That's through the end, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Allen, if you'll look -- there ought to be a -- we have -- the last page in the transcripts in the jury box should be Page 123; correct?

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  So --

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  Page what?

THE COURT:  123.

THE BAILIFF:  Okay.

THE COURT:  The last page in each of those books ought to be 123, and then we're going to add 124 through 136.

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  All right.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moore, do you want to take a look at them; and, Mr. Porter, if you'll hand them to Mr. Allen and add them to each book, please.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, for the Court, we have done the same thing as defense counsel, is just provided the substitute pages that were changed.

THE COURT:  All right.

MR. PORTER:  And we would provide to the court reporter for inclusion in State's Exhibit Number 96 the appropriate pages for substitution for the deleted pages as we did yesterday.

THE COURT:  All right.  Let's add them to the books first and then let's come back and perfect the record as far as exhibits go.  All right.  We have one added, Mr. Allen; is that correct?

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  Pardon?

THE COURT:  Do we have one added?

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  We don't have any yet.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  I'm providing them to Mr. Allen now, Your Honor.

SERGEANT PARR:  Your Honor, may we put the defendant up while you're doing this?

THE COURT:  Well, we're going to be transacting some business here with these.  He needs to be here.

MR. DAVIS:  Your Honor, if I may, I'm going to put tape two back into the machine and see if there's any more on it.  I'm going to make sure we did not stop it in the middle of a deletion and it's right at the end.

THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead, please.

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  It's going to take me a while, Judge.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. DAVIS:  I was looking at the machine when it went blank and I wasn't following the transcript at that point.  I'm not sure we got to the actual end of it.

MR. PORTER:  Yeah, we did because the next words are, 'I'll gather all this stuff up for you,' so we're at the end.

MR. DAVIS:  Your Honor, there's also four minutes and twenty seconds at the beginning of tape three where nothing is taking place.  There is no audio, there is no video, and with the Court's permission and Mr. Moore in agreement, I will fast forward to that point in tape three so that's where we would start on that.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  That's correct, Your Honor.  There's nothing there.

THE COURT:  All right.  So stipulated.  All right.  That completes first through sixth, the six jurors on the front row in the jury box insofar as the transcripts go.  Before we begin, I want to get the transcripts changed, then we'll take five minutes, and then we'll come back and perfect the record.

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  And then if we're ready, we'll proceed on.  Are those --

THE BAILIFF, MR. ALLEN:  All replaced, Judge.

THE COURT:  All right.  We'll come back to -- on the record then.  It appears that all eighteen transcripts in the box have the changes made to them with the additions to them.  We'll come back and perfect the record in a moment.  You want five minutes,        Mr. Porter?  Is that sufficient?

MR. PORTER:  I would think five minutes, Your Honor.  We'll notify the Court if there's a problem.

THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take five minutes.  If you'll return Mr. Chapel.  We'll take five minutes and then we'll return to perfect the record.

[Break taken]

THE COURT:  Where do we stand, Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, if I may, with the fact that there is no video, it makes it much more difficult for us to locate the appropriate times and plus the counter that we use on this video is different from the VCR in the room where we were working.  It's now 12:20.  We would request that we take the lunch recess now.  That will give us an hour.  I realize we've already had about twenty minutes to get it squared away, but that will give us the opportunity to get squared away so that we can play the twenty-three minutes immediately after lunch.  We have witnesses.  We're prepared to go forward.  If we can have this time, I believe using the counter on this machine, we will not have to have the jury step out.  We can just go -- we can fast forward through tape to take care of the portions and it won't require moving the jury in and out.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, that's fine.  I think that would be a good suggestion.  Probably the jury is ready to go to lunch anyway.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, the state has no objection if the Court just wants to excuse them without bringing them in and have the bailiffs take them to the lunchroom.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  That's fine, Your Honor.  We don't have any objection.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, there is one point that unlike Monday through Friday, my information is that except for feeding the jurors, the cafeteria is not here -- it's not open.

THE COURT:  I believe that's a fair statement.

MR. PORTER:  So with the weather today, I think that there may be some -- I know where at least some of my people are going to be, but there may be a little bit more delay in getting lunch today.

MR. MOORE:  And, Your Honor, if you would, I'd ask you to maybe consider giving us a few extra minutes, too.  We'd like to go down and look at this new piece of evidence that Mr. Porter has told us about this morning.

THE COURT:  All right.  1:45.  How does that sound?

MR. PORTER:  That's fine.

MR. MOORE:  That would be fine, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  If you'll have the jurors -- just go ahead and take them to lunch.  Take them down to the cafeteria, and we'll bring them back up at 1:45.  Okay?  Before we recess for lunch, let's perfect the record insofar as the transcripts. 

I believe the Pages 124 through 126, the revised version -- well, let's see, I've got 124 through 126.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  I thought it was 136.

MS. ROGAN:  Well, there were no changes.

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor, there were no changes from Page 126 through the end, which is at 136.  I've provided to the Court and the court reporter three changes for inclusion in their complete copies.

THE COURT:  All right.  The additional 124 through 126 represents what?

MR. PORTER:  The changes to the original transcript which is State's Exhibit Number 94.

THE COURT:  All right.  So those three pages as they presently stand are the -- that's the original or the redacted version?

MR. PORTER:  Well, Your Honor, State's Exhibit Number 94 is a transcript of the redacted tapes.  As the pages stand in State's Exhibit Number 94, before the substitution of these pages, they are the original pages.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, let's -- let me make sure I understand.  We have added this morning Pages 124 through 136 to the transcript which were not present this morning in the jurors' books.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  And that includes a redacted version; is that correct?

MR. PORTER:  That includes the redacted version of Pages 124, 125, and 126.

THE COURT:  All right.  And so State's Exhibit 94, as it presently stands, the transcript, is the redacted version of the tape, the total redacted version.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  It includes every redaction that has been made that the jury's going to hear through Page 136.  That's State's 94 at present.

MR. PORTER:  State's 94 was the original transcript of the redacted tapes.  We made one substitution yesterday and documented that by State's Exhibit Number 95 on Page 38, I believe.  Today, we are substituting into State's Exhibit 94 Pages 124, 125, and 126.  If the Court follows the same procedure it did yesterday, the court reporter will remove Pages 124, 125, and 126 from State's Exhibit 94, substitute the new pages, and mark the pages which have been removed as State's Exhibit Number 96.

THE COURT:  It's still not clear to me, and I want to make sure it's totally clear on the record.  State's 94 as it stands now is a transcript of the defendant's interview with a redacted Page 38.  That's where we started this morning.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  And State's 95 is the original Page 38, which is no longer in the transcript which the jurors have.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, then, we have added Pages 124 through 136 this morning.

MR. PORTER:  Not to 94, but to the jurors' transcripts.

THE COURT:  Okay.  The jurors' transcripts now have 124 through 136, which is a redacted -- which is the --

MR. PORTER:  The final redactions, yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Okay.  And --

MR. PORTER:  All we're talking about now is --

THE COURT:  124, 125, and 126 is what?

MR. PORTER:  Those were the changes regarding the statements about the M-16 rifle.

THE COURT:  All right.  And State's 94 has or does not have the 124, 125, and 126?

MR. PORTER:  Right now, it has it.  It has it in State's 94.  If we follow the procedure we followed yesterday, the court reporter will remove Pages 124, 125, and 126, substitute the new pages and then --

THE COURT:  Let's mark them as an exhibit so we know what we're talking about.

MR. PORTER:  -- and then mark -- Your Honor, what we did yesterday was mark the pages that have been removed as exhibits.

THE COURT:  All right.  What is the separate 124, 125, and 126?  Is that going to be added?  That's State's Exhibit 96?  Is that what that's going to be?

MR. PORTER:  Well, Your Honor, the Court will have to explain -- if we use the procedure yesterday, we would mark Pages 124 and 125 and 126 as a single State's Exhibit of 96.

THE COURT:  That's my question.

MR. PORTER:  And we would substitute the new pages into State's Exhibit Number 94 so that 94, as we move along, maintains as a current copy of the transcript that is in the possession of the jurors.

THE COURT:  Well, to be consistent with yesterday, what we need to do is pull out Pages 124, 125, and 126 from the State's 94 which has the original, mark that as State's 96, and then replace it with a redacted 124, 125, and 126 --

MR. PORTER:  That's correct.

THE COURT:  -- in which case the transcript then of State's 94 has all the redactions, but with the original separated out and kept as an exhibit, which in this case would be State's 96?

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  That's correct, Your Honor.  I think that's a good way to do it.  To have a transcript of what the jury actually saw, you know, rather than having different --

THE COURT:  I believe so.  All right.  So we're going to pull out pages -- what at this point is State's 94 and pull out Pages 124, 125, and 126, and those three pages will be marked as State's 96 and that will be the original transcript.  Those three pages will be what was the original transcript and replaced with the redacted pages which will be part of State's 94.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mary, has that change been made in State's 94?

THE REPORTER:  That change has been made.

THE COURT:  And the transcript, which the jurors have, is consistent with State's 94?

MR. PORTER:  As the most recent changes have been made.

THE COURT:  Including the change designated to State's 96.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.  We'll make the change as designated State's 96, that makes the transcript the jurors see with the additional Pages 124 through 136, that includes the redacted pages 124, 125, and 126 --

          MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  -- which have been, the originals removed as State's 96.

MR. PORTER:  That's correct, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  And State's 94, at this point, matches the transcript which the jurors have.

MR. PORTER:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  I agree with that, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  So stipulated.  Anything else at this point, Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  We'll be in recess until 1:45.

[Lunch recess]

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4377

 

 



      AFTERNOON SESSION

[Proceedings resumed following the lunch recess with the jurors not present.]

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, may we approach the bench?

THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

[Counsel approached the bench and the following conference ensued.]

MR. PORTER:  The tape will take about twenty-three or twenty-four minutes to play.

MR. MOORE:  Did y'all determine you don't need to send the jury out now?  Elizabeth said or --

MR. PORTER:  We don't have to send the jury out during the playing of the tape.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Then do you -- since we're going to go back to live witnesses, do you want to take a few minutes to tear this down and get it out of here?

          THE COURT:  I'm about broke out.  I think it's time to move on.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we're going to have three TV's sitting right here.

THE COURT:  Do we have a place for them over here?

MR. PORTER:  Well, I mean, when I say tear down, I mean just pull the cables up and roll them outside the courtroom, and I'll get them taken care of from there.

THE COURT:  That won't take but a couple of minutes, will it?

MR. PORTER:  No, sir.

THE COURT:  I'm inclined just us all sit here and take a pause and if you've got somebody from your office to unplug them and tow them out and call your witness.

MR. PORTER:  That's fine with me.

MR. DAVIS:  It's going to require the TV people, too.  They've got some of their equipment hitched into it.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  Let's do this.  Just unplug it from the floor while they're -- they've got a microphone in there.

THE COURT:  Okay.  My concern is we're going to spend the rest of the day on the last twenty minutes of the video.

MR. PORTER:  Well, I understand that, Judge, but I'm --

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, about how tell your video folks to be ready; otherwise, let's just shove this stuff in the corner and crank it up.

MR. PORTER:  Well, I'm going to just wheel it out, but they've got to get their microphones pulled out from there and reset.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  And they've got some cables that are hooking the two things together.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, put them on notice to be ready and let's get it out.

MR. DAVIS:  I will go do that now.

          THE COURT:  Okay.  And get it out and get rid of it and bring on our witnesses and let's proceed on.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we've got plenty of witnesses to fill the rest of the day.

THE COURT:  Not if we're running out of time, if we keep -- this last twenty minutes is going to take a half a day at the rate we're going.

MR. PORTER:  It's like after the two-minute warning in a football game, I guess.

THE COURT:  Yeah.  Okay.  Ready otherwise?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  As soon as Mr. Davis gets back.

THE COURT:  Okay.

[Bench conference concluded.]

THE COURT:  Is the state ready?

MR. PORTER:  The state's ready.  Are you ready, Mr. Davis?

MR. DAVIS:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Is the defendant ready?

MR. MOORE:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Are they ready to unhook the cables and move them on when we take a short recess?

MR. DAVIS:  I just let them know.

THE COURT:  Okay.  We're going to need to expedite that.  And we don't need to send the jury out; is that correct?

MR. DAVIS:  No, sir.

MR. MOORE:  No, sir.

THE COURT:  All right.  Do we have any problem with -- is there an inadvertent stop along the way?  Is there anything that's been excluded coming up?

MR. DAVIS:  On the first two, Your Honor, we could get a word or two that we technically have redacted from the transcript.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Maybe what you ought to do is before you fast forward or move it forward is just turn the volume down on the TV, the jury's, on one or both of them.  They've got a volume switch, haven't they, volume knob?  Just turn them down to zero, that way, with no sound coming out.

MR. DAVIS:  Put both on the little speaker there and on the TV.

THE COURT:  All right.  When it comes back up, it may not be in the right place and you can kind of know where to turn them.

MR. DAVIS:  Well, we're having to turn them both wide open for the third tape anyway, so that's not a problem.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Just turn them down and that way if there's an inadvertent stop, we don't have an issue or corrective instructions and all that for an inadvertent broadcast.  Okay.  Is the state ready?

MR. PORTER:  The state's ready, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Is the defendant ready?

MR. MOORE:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Bring the jury back, please.

[The jury returned to the courtroom and proceedings resumed, as follows.]

MR. DAVIS:  We're at Line 21, Page 123.

THE COURT:  Thank you.  I assume it's all audio from here on in.

MR. PORTER:  All audio.

THE COURT:  Ladies and gentlemen, we have about twenty or twenty-five minutes, I believe, left of the tape.  From here on in until we conclude, the tape will be audio only, and we are about to commence on Page 123, Line 7; is that about where we are?

MR. DAVIS:  I think Line 20, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Line 20 on Page 123.  And we're going to have some pauses along the way to proceed to the proper portions of the tape at the direction of the Court, so we'll be pausing along the way to commence on to the correct portions and it won't be necessary to take any recesses during that time. 

Go ahead when you're ready.

[Whereupon, the playing of videotape three commenced.]

MR. PORTER:  We're going to collect the transcripts --

THE COURT:  Do you want a few minutes to remove your equipment?

          MR. PORTER:  Yes, Your Honor, I do.

THE COURT:  All right.  If you'll leave your transcripts along with your pens, pads, and notes in your seats, and they'll be waiting on you when you return, except for the transcripts.  And at this time, we'll take five minutes.  If you'll go with the bailiffs, please.

[The jury was excused from the courtroom for the recess.]

[Break taken]

THE COURT:  Ready, Mr. Porter?

          MR. PORTER:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Ready, Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Yes, Your Honor.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, before the jury comes in and since the defendant is in the courtroom, the state intends to introduce an exhibit which is the leather gear or the belt of Officer Chapel that was removed the night of his arrest.  In examining that, we discovered there were two full clips of .45 caliber bullets, and they are not necessary to the state's case or for the reason that we're entering it, and I'm going to turn those over to the deputy sheriffs at this time.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Are they marked as any kind of exhibit or you just want to identify them?

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.  I just wanted to remove them from the belt.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Restate it again so I understand.  What is it?

MR. PORTER:  When we were examining the belt and the clip cases that were still clipped, there are two automatic pistol cases and a number of what would appear to be .45 caliber rounds that are live.

THE COURT:  All right.  Is it two magazines; is that correct?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.

          THE COURT:  All right.  And that's a .45?  Is that what they are?

MR. PORTER:  They appear to be, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.  And along with several live rounds of .45 ammunition.

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.  And I don't intend to introduce them as evidence.  I'm going to turn them over to the deputy sheriffs, and they can remove them from the courtroom or return them to my office.  I wanted to bring them to the courtroom so that I could show them to defense counsel and assure them that there had been no material alteration to the belt itself.

THE COURT:  Okay.  And what do you intend ultimately as the disposition of the magazines and the rounds?

MR. PORTER:  I don't have any intention as to the ultimate disposition, but I don't intend to introduce them into evidence.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Are you going to keep them or are you releasing them?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I can either release them to my investigator to take back or give them to the deputy sheriff.

THE COURT:  Okay.  You're retaining them in the possession of the district attorney's office?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  I understand.    Mr. Moore, anything for the record?

MR. MOORE:  No,  Your Honor.  As far as I know, they have no relevance to this case and it seems to me it's appropriate to store them outside the courtroom.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Anything else,   Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  No, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  We'll be going until about five or shortly thereafter today, and we'll find a good place to recess along about five o'clock, between five and 5:15 preferably. 

Okay.  Bring the jury back in, please.  And I believe we have the transcripts removed and those are stored?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, they're under -- they're right behind the court reporter under the ledge on the bench.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Those ought to be preserved as part of the record in the case.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we're going to take them back down to the office and store them in a box.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore, do you have any objection to the district attorney retaining the transcripts which the jury has seen?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I would think maybe one of them ought to be entered into the record and made part of the record.  I mean, I know we've got the original, but I would think maybe one of the ones that went to the jury, too, just to examine it.

THE COURT:  I don't have a problem with that.     Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  I don't have any problem with that, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  At recess or at the end of the day, Mr. Moore, we'll just select one at random or you can pick one out if you like and we'll make it a part of the record.

MR. MOORE:  Thank you, Your Honor.

[The jury returned to the courtroom and proceedings resumed, as follows.]

THE COURT:  Everybody find their pens and pads okay?  All right.  Call your next witness, please.

MR. PORTER:  The state would call Captain John Latty to the stand.

[The witness was called to the courtroom and stepped to the witness stand.]

THE COURT:  Go ahead and be seated, please.     Mr. Porter, if you'll administer the oath.

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.  Can you raise your right hand, please.  Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're about to give in this matter now pending shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS:  I do.

Whereupon,

     JOHN LATTY

having been called as a witness and duly sworn, was examined and testified, as follows:

     DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. PORTER:

Q.   Can you state your name and spell your last name for the record?

A.   John Latty, L-a-t-t-y.

Q.   And how are you employed, Mr. Latty?

A.   With the Gwinnett County police department.

Q.   What are your duties there?

A.   I'm a captain.  I'm the commander of the crimes -- the criminal investigation section.

Q.   All right.  How long have you been employed with the Gwinnett County police department?

A.   Seventeen years.

Q.   And at the time of the murder of Emogene Thompson in April 1993, were you employed with the Gwinnett County police department?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   What were your duties at that time?

A.   At that time, I was a lieutenant and I was a watch commander in charge of the day watch of the criminal investigations section.

Q.   Captain Latty, could you describe, not in this particular case, but in a general case how the assignment of responsibility in conducting an investigation is done?

A.   The investigation section is divided up into squads who specialize in certain types of crimes, so the crime is categorized and assigned accordingly.  In the case of a homicide case or an armed robbery, it would go to the crimes against persons section to the homicide assault unit.

Q.   All right.  And is it then assigned to one particular investigator to direct?

A.   Yes, sir, it is.

Q.   All right.  Does that investigator essentially have authority to direct the investigation and follow it up as he sees fit?

A.   Yes, sir, he does.  He has quite a bit of leeway in making those decisions.

Q.   All right.  And who was the lead investigator assigned to investigate the death of Emogene Thompson?

A.   Jack Burnette.

Q.   And did you work with Jack Burnette during the investigation of that death?

A.   Yes, sir, I did.

Q.   In fact, did Jack Burnette ever give you tasks -- well, first of all, what is Jack Burnette's rank?

A.   He's an investigator and --

Q.   Did he assign you tasks during the course of that investigation that he wanted you to perform?

A.   Yes, sir, he did.

Q.   And even as a lieutenant, would you perform those at his direction?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And did you also -- were you also responsible for the supervisory aspects of the case into the death of Emogene Thompson?

A.   Yes, sir, I was.

Q.   Now, I'd like to call your attention to the evening hours of April 22, 1993, and the early morning hours of April 23, 1993.  Were you present with Investigator Burnette when the defendant, Michael Chapel, was interviewed by the Gwinnett County police department?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Could you describe generally where that interview took place within the police department?

A.   It took place in an interview room just off the criminal investigations section.  We have a series of rooms that are just down from the section where the investigators' work places are.

Q.   Now, Captain Latty, the jury has already seen the videotapes of that interview, but could you just describe generally the events that led up to that evening, particularly to Chapel coming to the police station?

A.   Yes, sir.  We had gotten to the point where he was the suspect in the case.  We then began to plan, because he was a police officer, along with the division commander, the police chief, the district attorney's office, on how we were going to proceed.  We felt like we had reached the point where we had to confront him and to question him about his knowledge of this case.  So during the course of the day, several things had occurred.  We had consulted with an expert on how we should proceed, who should interview him, those type things.  The thing that moved us to the point of actually conducting the interview when we did was the identification from the photographic lineup.

Q.   All right.  And was Officer Chapel called to the police department that evening after his work shift ended?

A.   Yes, sir.  He was working the evening watch that day, so he was simply called.  We decided the simplest way to do it would be to call him in on his radio and ask him to meet with us at police headquarters.

Q.   What, if any, arrangements were made within the detective division prior to his arrival?

A.   Well, we attempted throughout the investigation to keep this information, the fact that Mike Chapel was a suspect, from as many people in the police department as possible to protect him if it was not him.  So as we reached the point of bringing him in to do the interview, the division commander sent the -- all the other employees home from the -- from the criminal investigations section so that they would not be present when he came in.

Q.   And when Chapel arrived, how was he dressed?

A.   In his uniform.  He was on duty.

Q.   Was he armed?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Did you make -- is it normal practice to interview suspects who are armed?

A.   No, sir, not at all.

Q.   All right.  And did you make arrangements for him to turn over his weapon?

A.   Yes, sir.  When he came into the building, he was on duty, in uniform, he had his weapon.  We have gun lockers situated just outside the interview room for that purpose.  We never have a weapon in an interview, so we moved to the gun lockers, and I asked him to place his weapons in the gun locker, as I did.

Q.   All right.  Did he have any response when you told him or when you asked him to put his gun in the gun locker?

A.   Yes, sir.  As we approached the gun locker, I made some comment about, 'Let's secure our weapons.  That's procedure.'  He then looked at me and said, 'Yeah, you can't have armed suspects in an interview, can you?'  And I said no.    Q.   All right.  What was his demeanor at that time?

A.   He -- he looked like he was a little bit apprehensive at that point.

Q.   Now, when -- did you go directly from the gun lockers to the interview room?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   When you went into the interview room, did Chapel appear to be under the influence of any drugs or alcohol?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Did he appear to understand the rights that were given to him on the videotape?

A.   Yes, sir, he did.

Q.   Did he indicate verbally that he understood them?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Did he appear to be suffering from any mental or physical defect that would have prevented him from understanding his situation?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Did he agree to speak with you after the advisement of his rights?

A.   Yes, sir, he did.

Q.   And did he do so voluntarily without any threats from you or without any promises from you?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Now, later in the investigation, Captain Latty, you also came into possession of a certain item of evidence; is that correct?  Particularly, a briefcase.

A.   Yes, sir, I did.

Q.   All right.

Q.   I'd like to show you what has been marked as State's Exhibit Number 97.  Can you look at that and identify it, please?

A.   Yes, sir.  That's a briefcase that was taken out of Mike Chapel's car on the morning of the 24th during the execution of a search warrant.

Q.   And who did you receive that evidence from?

A.   Sergeant Steve Cline.

Q.   And what did you do with it once you received it?

A.   I was in my office in the criminal investigations section.  Cline was outside overseeing the execution of the search warrant on the patrol unit.  He had several things that he was trying to accomplish, so he brought the briefcase to me in my office and asked me if I'd take custody of it and look through it to see if there was anything in it that might be relevant to this case and then place it in the property room for him.

Q.   All right.  And did you in fact look through the briefcase?

A.   Yes, sir, I did.

Q.   Did you inventory its contents at that time?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   Did you remove anything from it?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   And what did you do once -- when you put it into evidence?  What did you physically do?

A.   Filled out the necessary forms, put some tape around it, as you see this here, and then placed it in the evidence room.

Q.   Did you have any further contact with the briefcase directly in terms of looking at it or looking in it?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   Now, I'd like to call your attention to the night -- or the morning of the 23rd.  Did you have occasion on that night to take certain items of evidence from the possession of Mike Chapel?

A.   Yes, sir, I did.  I took his uniform and his leather gear, along with a leather tool that he had in his pocket.

Q.   I'd like to show you what's been marked as State's Exhibit Number 98.  Can you look at that, please, and identify it?  First of all, identify what's been marked, which is the back.

A.   Yes, sir.  It has my handwriting on it where I filled out the necessary information to place it in the evidence room.

Q.   All right.  Is that a Gwinnett County evidence bag?

A.   Yes, sir, it is.

Q.   And did you place the contents in that?

A.   Yes, sir, I did.

Q.   Could you examine the contents and remove them from the bag?

A.   [Witness complies]

Q.   And if I could have those, I'll have them marked.

THE COURT:  What is 98?  Is that the bag itself?

MR. PORTER:  The evidence bag itself.

THE COURT:  Okay.

[State's Exhibit Number 99 was marked for identification by the court reporter.]

BY MR. PORTER:

Q.   Captain Latty, if you could examine what has been marked as State's Exhibit Number 99 and identify that, please, sir?

A.   This is the police issue leather gear that I took from Mike Chapel that night at the end of the interview or toward the end of the interview.

Q.   Captain Latty, have you yourself been issued leather gear like that?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And are you familiar with that type of leather gear?

A.   Yes, sir, I am.

Q.   What hand or what side would the holster be worn on?

A.   On the right side.  This is for a right-handed person.

Q.   All right.  Now, Captain Latty, I'd like to call your attention specifically to the interview itself.  What is a signal 24?

A.   It's police jargon or code that we use for a person who's mentally disturbed.

Q.   All right.  And what is an 86?

A.   A domestic dispute.

Q.   Now, finally, I'd like to call your attention to the days immediately following the death of Emogene Thompson.  Are you aware, of your own knowledge, that Mike Chapel was instructed to prepare a supplemental report on the burglary call that he had responded to on April 3, 1993?

A.   Yes, sir.  That was -- we learned that early in the investigation that Ms. Thompson, once we had identified her as the victim, we learned that she had reported a burglary, according to some of the people who knew her.  We began to try to locate that burglary report and could not find one.  When we couldn't find the incident report pertaining to the burglary, then we checked other records, dispatch cards and that type of thing, and to identify the officer who had been dispatched to the burglary, if one had been, and we discovered it was Mike Chapel.  So, therefore, we contacted him and instructed him to write a report, not an incident report, but a supplemental report explaining his actions and his contact with Ms. Thompson prior to her death.

Q.   All right.  At the -- and was that report subsequently turned in to you, the report he was ordered to write?

A.   Around five o'clock on the evening of the 16th, he came in and turned it over to Captain Davis in my presence.  I was present when that happened.

Q.   Now, Lieutenant Latty, on April 16, at the time that he was ordered to write this report, had the investigation focused on Mike Chapel as a suspect?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Thank you. 

MR. PORTER:  That's all the questions I have.  Mr. Moore, if you'll just give me a minute, I'll clear off the witness stand for you.

THE COURT:  Is there anything else contained    in --

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.  It is empty.

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. MOORE:  I examined it, Your Honor.  There's nothing inside of it.  There were items in it that have been removed.

THE COURT:  All right.  Okay.

MR. PORTER:  And, Your Honor, at this time, they have been identified but we are not prepared to tender them.  We would tender State's Exhibit 98 and 99.

MR. MOORE:  98 and --

MR. PORTER:  And 98 being the evidence bag and 99 being the leather gear.

THE COURT:  Any objection?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, normally, I wouldn't object, but there's been so much -- because of the things in this case and everything, I'm not going to consent to anything until he connects up all the chains of custody and proves everything, so I'm just not going to consent.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, there is no chain of custody requirement.  Captain Latty has testified that he removed it from Mike Chapel's waist, and he has identified it here in court.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor --

MR. PORTER:  And the evidence bag has his writing on it.

MR. MOORE:  It may very well be admissible, but I'm -- all this physical evidence, I'm not going to consent to it.

THE COURT:  All right.  State's 98 and 99 are admitted over objection.

MR. PORTER:  I have no other questions for Captain Latty, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

     CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, I believe you know me.  I have a few questions to ask you.  Now, on the night that the interview took place -- the jury's seen the taped interview, the one that was conducted at the police department.  You know the one I'm referring to?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   On the night that was conducted, in fact, Officer Chapel was ordered to come to headquarters.  He was on duty.  Is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Chief Doss called him on the radio and ordered him to come in?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And you were one of his ranking superior officers; is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir.  Not directly his chain of command, but I was superior to him in rank, yes, sir.

Q.   Even though he worked -- you were day watch commander and somebody else was his night watch commander, he would have had to respond to your orders; is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir, he would have.

Q.   Okay.  Was there any discussion about the fact of having a ranking officer that he had to respond to question him and interrogate him?

A.   Yes, sir.  All of those things we considered prior to the interview.  Yes, sir.

Q.   So that was intentional; right?

A.   Jack Burnette and I were the two people selected to do the interview.  Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And it was obvious that Mike Chapel respected that authority, because throughout the interview he referred to you as Lieutenant.  He didn't call you by your first name, John, or anything like that, did he?

A.   He knew my rank, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  But he never referred to you as an equal like John?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Okay.  He referred to you as his ranking officer, Lieutenant?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Now, Mr. Porter brought out some of the codes there, and I'm not very familiar with them, and the jury may not be either, so I wanted you to -- 24 is that what's called a demented person.  Is that the technical name that they use on this code?

A.   Yes, sir, it is.

Q.   Okay.  And 86 is a domestic call; is that --

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And what is a 44?

A.   An armed robbery.

Q.   And what is a 78?

A.   A BOLO or be on the look out for this particular person or vehicle.

Q.   Okay.  And a 10-7?

A.   Out of service or out of call.

Q.   Okay.  And a 10-8?

A.   In service.

Q.   Okay.  And a 10-46?

A.   A stranded motorist.

Q.   Okay.  So when 10-8 has been used that's -- when an officer went 10-8, that means he left a call somewhere.

A.   He's gone into service, yes, sir.

THE COURT:  What was the number for the BOLO?  I did not understand that.

MR. PORTER:  It's a 78, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  All right.  Let me ask, insofar as  Mr. Moore, Mary, as far as the exhibits, we have a -- I show no D-46 and 47 or 52.  Are those intentional blanks or does it matter?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'm not sure.  I'd have to go back and check.

THE COURT:  Well, you can number them how you please.

THE REPORTER:  D what -- what was that again?

THE COURT:  I just want to make sure we don't have a number 46, 47, and 52.

THE REPORTER:  46 is Michael Thompson's deposition, 47 is Michael Thompson's statement, and what was the other number?  46, 47, and --

THE COURT:  52.

THE REPORTER:  52, the transcript of Dolores Burel's interview, April 16.

THE COURT:  Okay.  I just missed them when we were talking about them, then.  Okay.  Go ahead, please.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Now, Officer Latty, when Mike Chapel came into the headquarters up there, he came in, I believe, there's a back door there where you park outside, you go through the gate, and you park outside, and you can come in through the detective division; is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir.  He parked right outside the door and come directly into the detective section.  Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And, normally, there would be detectives in there working on their job, wouldn't they?

A.   Up until at that time, I think it was eleven o'clock.  Yes, sir.

Q.   And there weren't any that night when he came in, were there?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Because everybody had been sent home?

A.   That's correct.

Q.   And you were talking about him looking apprehensive.  Everything was very strange, him being called in, nobody working at the police department, you're the only people there in that division?

A.   Could be, yes, sir.

Q.   And anybody that was called in under those circumstances when they know that you're investigating a police officer from the northside precinct, you thought it was from the northside precinct, would be apprehensive, wouldn't they?

A.   Probably, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And you've probably been called in by your supervisor before, not for that kind of thing, but for various things, and you're always a little apprehensive, aren't you?

A.   Still am, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Describe that room to us if you would where you did the interview.

A.   It's a room that's designed specifically to conduct interviews.  It's about eight feet by eight feet in size, I believe, maybe a little bigger than that, but it's a private, small, confined room, and it has gray carpet-like material on the walls.  There's a small table and, depending on the number of people in there, two or three chairs to sit in.

Q.   Okay.  Like you said, it's a very small room, isn't it?

A.   Small, yes, sir.

Q.   I'm going to show you what's been marked Defendant's Exhibit Number 56, 57, and 58, and ask you if you can identify each one of those by number.

A.   Number 56 is a photograph of an interview room and showing the table and a couple of the chairs from it, looks like, from just outside the door.  57 shows the door entered into the interview room which is 166, numbered 166.  And 58 is another photograph of the interior of the room.  It looks like it may have been taken from just outside the door, showing another chair, the table and the chair, where the questioning took place.

Q.   Okay.  Are all those interview rooms substantially the same?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And are those photos a fair and accurate representation of the way those interview rooms looked?

A.   Yes, sir, the are.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I would tender Defendant's 56, 57, and 58 at this time.

THE COURT:  Are they the Gwinnett County police department interview rooms?

MR. MOORE:  Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Is that --

THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  All right.  Any objection?

MR. PORTER:  No objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Defendant's 56, 57, and 58 are admitted without objection.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'd like to publish these to the jury at this time.

          THE COURT:  Go ahead, please.

[Presenting to the jury]

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Now, Officer Latty, when you were speaking to Mike Chapel on the videotape, I'm calling your attention back to the night you interviewed him with the videotape --

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   -- toward the end of it, you and Jack Burnette were acting like you were very concerned about him and his family and everything.  Do you recall that?

A.   Yes, sir, I do.

Q.   Okay.  And you told him that you were going to go out and tell his family where he was so that they'd know, they wouldn't be worried about him and they'd know what happened --

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   -- and nobody ever did that, did they?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Who did it?

A.   Chief White, I understand, met with them later that morning and met with his wife.

Q.   Okay.  Was that after the family had been calling around everywhere to find out where he was?

A.   I don't know that.

Q.   Do you know whether or not the family called his supervisor, D. E. Stone, the next morning to find out where he was?

A.   No, sir, I don't know.

Q.   So it's your testimony that Chief White went out there and did that?

A.   As I recall.  I remember some discussion of contacting his wife or -- particularly his wife and some of his family members about meeting with them in person to explain to them what was taking place, yes, sir.

Q.   Would it surprise you if that didn't happen?

A.   It would surprise me if it didn't happen, yes, sir.  That was the plan.

Q.   Okay.  Now, when Officer Chapel was brought into  -- ordered into headquarters up there, you had your photo lineup at that time; right?

A.   The photo lineup had been shown to one or two witnesses, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  At the time he was brought into the headquarters up there, the decision had already been made to arrest him, hadn't it?

A.   It depended on what took place during the interview.  It depended on what he told us.  We were still holding out hope that he was going to explain these actions suitably so that we could eliminate him as a suspect in this case.

Q.   Officer Latty, the truth is there's nothing he could have told you when he came up there that he would have walked out of there a free man, is there?

A.   Probably.  I mean, I can't imagine what it would be right off, but I think there's possibly something he could have told us.  We certainly hoped that there was something he could tell us.

Q.   Okay.  But your goal was to get a confession out of him when you called him in there, wasn't it?

A.   Our goal was to find out the truth about his involvement in this case, and if that led to a confession, then that was our goal, yes, sir.

Q.   But your goal was to get him to confess, wasn't it?  That's my question.

A.   If he committed the crime, and we believed at that time that he had, yes, sir, we hoped he'd confess it.

Q.   Do you remember testifying at a pre-trial hearing?  Remember when I asked you that question, and you responded 'absolutely'?

A.   Yes, sir.  After some discussion, as I remember, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And Mike Chapel was under arrest once he walked in that police department door and gave you his gun, wasn't he?

A.   No, sir.  In my opinion, he was not.

Q.   Okay.  When a person is not free to leave --

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object.  This is a legal conclusion that this officer cannot put before the jury.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I believe I can question him about whether the person was free to leave or not.

MR. PORTER:  That's not the way the question was.  'When a person is not free to leave --'

THE COURT:  Ask the question as to -- inquire as to the facts as you wish.

MR. MOORE:  Okay.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Once Officer Chapel walked in and you introduced yourself or -- you didn't need to introduce yourself, he knew who you were -- and you put your guns up and everything, he was not free to leave at that point, was he?

A.   Had he refused the interview at that point or refused to cooperate, no, he would not have been allowed to leave.

Q.   Okay.  And he wasn't free to leave at any time during that interview, was he?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Okay.  If he had gone in there and you told him what you were doing and what you were investigating and he told you like he did in the beginning, 'I don't know what you're talking about, I didn't do it,' and time came for him to get off of work and he said, 'Lieutenant Latty, I'm going home,' what would you have done?

A.   We would have kept him there.

Q.   You would've arrested him.  You'd have told him he was under arrest at that point, wouldn't you?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  You didn't tell him earlier, but you would have told him then if he said, 'I want to go home.  It's time for me to get off from work.'

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And y'all called him in there to interrogate him.  What time was it, about 10:30?

A.   I don't know exactly what time he was called.  It was around that time.  He arrived there and the interview began, as I remember, around 10:40, 10:40 p.m., yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And you were aware that he had his Iron World Gym, weren't you?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And you were aware that his routine was that he got up every morning and went to the gym and did stuff there and then came on to work at the police department?

A.   No -- I wasn't aware of it.  He explained that to us during the interview, as you saw.

Q.   Okay.  Now, he comes on duty at what time?

A.   That shift begins at 2:30 in the evening.

Q.   Okay.  2:30 in the afternoon?

A.   Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Would you approach the bench, please?

[Counsel approached the bench and the following conference ensued outside hearing of the jury.]

THE COURT:  Does this witness know about the excluded portions and the M-16 and all that?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, sir.

THE COURT:  Okay.  So we're not going to have any problem with that?

          MR. PORTER:  No, I don't think so, Your Honor.  There is one matter.  I can't see it because I can't turn around.  There's a fair amount of noise coming out of the family and the jurors are looking over there.  I have a feeling that they're either disagreeing with points --

THE COURT:  I'll keep an eye on it.

MR. PORTER:  If you would, that's all I have, but I can't turn around.

MS. ROGAN:  I haven't heard anything.

THE COURT:  Okay.  I just wanted to make sure since he wasn't here at the video, about the excluded portions and that sort of thing.

MR. PORTER:  He's been made aware of that.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Then we don't have a problem with him --

MR. MOORE:  I'm not going to ask him anything that would bring it out, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.

MR. MOORE:  Not on purpose.

THE COURT:  Okay.

[Bench conference concluded.]

THE COURT:  Go ahead, please.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, I'm trying to remember where I was now.  When Mike was brought in there, he'd been on duty for how long?

A.   Eight hours.

Q.   It was just about time for him to get off, wasn't it?

A.   About -- very close, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And he was questioned then for almost five hours, wasn't he?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And he was visibly tired on the videotape, wasn't he?

A.   He didn't appear tired to me.

Q.   Didn't appear tired to you.  And do you remember at one point in the video telling him that it would be easier on his family if he'd tell you about it?

A.   I don't remember saying that specifically.  I remember -- I certainly remember discussing with him the impact it was going to have on him and his family and all the rest of us, too.

Q.   Now, this briefcase that Mr. Porter --

MR. MOORE:  What was the number on that,        Mr. Porter?

          MR. PORTER:  97.

MR. MOORE:  Okay.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   -- State's Exhibit Number 97, the briefcase that you examined with Mr. Porter a few minutes ago, you didn't inventory the contents of that?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   Okay.  You didn't think it was necessary?

A.   Not at the time.  I was looking for specific items at that point and, no, I did not inventory it.  There was -- there were quite a few articles in it, and I had other things to do, so I placed it in the property room.

Q.   Okay.  And what specific items were you looking for?

A.   .38 rounds, phone numbers, anything pertaining to Ms. Thompson.  Anything that might be relevant.

Q.   Money?

A.   Money.

Q.   Did you find any?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Did you search it thoroughly?

A.   Not real thoroughly, no, sir.

Q.   And could you explain why you didn't search it thoroughly?

A.   Well, not thoroughly enough to find concealed bills, no, sir.

Q.   Did you assign anybody else to search it thoroughly?

A.   No, sir.  I placed it in the property room and that's the last I had to do with that.  Later on, Investigator Burnette went back to it a couple of times to more thoroughly examine it.

Q.   Okay.  And when was that; do you know?

A.   Some days later.  I think May 10, May 17, along there.

Q.   Okay.  So how many times did people go in that briefcase; do you know?

A.   Two or three times that I'm aware of.

Q.   Okay.  And where was it secured in between those times?

A.   In the property room.  You always have to sign it out and get it from the property room custodian.  You have to sign for it.  When you take it -- you know, they sign, you take it back, you sign again.

Q.   Okay.

A.   It's carefully tracked.

Q.   Okay.  But there can be problems, can't there?

A.   I suppose there can always be problems, yes, sir.

Q.   Y'all have had thefts in that evidence room since the time that briefcase was put in there and the time of this trial, haven't you?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to this.  This is irrelevant.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I think it's relevant that the --

THE COURT:  Objection's overruled.  Go ahead, please.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Y'all have had thefts out of that evidence room since the time that briefcase was placed in there and the time this case has come to trial?

A.   No, sir.  We had a theft that I'm aware of sometime prior to that time, '91, '92, but it was prior to this case.

Q.   Wasn't there an incident involving Bodie Hurst?

A.   Yes, sir.  That's what I'm referring to.

Q.   There's another incident, wasn't there, involving Ms. McDaniels?

A.   I'm not familiar with Ms. McDaniels.

Q.   And over the years, there's been other problems in that evidence room, too, hasn't there?

A.   The evidence room has been moved from one place to another on occasion.  As time goes by and as you improve your procedures and you improve your technique, you change things, yes, sir.  And sometimes you discover that you need to make those changes because errors occur, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Now, when you were interviewing Mike Chapel, you made a reference in there that you'd been -- kicked up enough dust or something.  What were you referring to?

A.   That I had kicked up enough dust?

Q.   Yes, sir.

A.   I don't remember the context of that statement.

Q.   It had something to do with you going to detectives down to the westside precinct.  You said you'd kicked up enough dust and you never did come back up.

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Do you know what I'm talking about now?

A.   Yes, sir.  I was referring to the -- yes, sir, I was referring to the Robert Wall lawsuit.  I got transferred over it.

Q.   Okay.  You got transferred out of detectives over that?

A.   I got transferred out of detectives, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Did you lose any rank over it?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.  I was transferred because I didn't go along with what I was told to do because it was wrong.  They're gone and I'm still here.

Q.   So you got transferred for doing things right?

A.   Absolutely.

Q.   Did you think that was fair?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   Were you following proper police procedures in what you did?

A.   Yes, sir, I was.

Q.   Then I don't understand exactly why you got transferred, then.

A.   I got transferred because when I spoke out on it, I discredited the chief.

Q.   Now, there's references in your interview there to the Sugar Hill city marshal.

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   He was a suspect in this case at one time, wasn't he?

A.   I don't know that I'd call him a suspect.  What occurred was, as we began to realize that the witnesses on PIB had seen a patrol car there, and we established that it was actually a patrol car, then we could not at that point imagine it being one of our officers.  I mean, we kind of had tunnel vision, so we were thinking of the Sugar Hill city marshal because we didn't know him very well.  He hadn't been around very long.

Q.   You never did say that you thought that it was him to begin with?

A.   When we first began to get the information from the witnesses that they had seen a patrol car there, this kind of evolved.  Initially, we thought maybe someone impersonating an officer had stopped Ms. Thompson.  But as the witnesses increased and as the detail of their information became clearer, we established that it not only was a bona fide police car, but it was one of ours.  Prior to us determining it was definitely one of our cars, the Sugar Hill city marshal was one of the people we thought about because he has an issued police vehicle and we couldn't account for him all the time.

Q.   Okay.  And do you know what hours he worked, what his shift was at the Sugar Hill precinct -- or not precinct -- that was his jurisdiction, Sugar Hill?

A.   Yes, sir.  I don't remember exactly, but I think that he worked -- I can't say.  I don't remember exactly now.

Q.   Do you know if he worked that night that        Ms. Thompson was killed?

A.   As I recall, he didn't, but I'm not certain.

Q.   And he was the first officer on the scene the next morning; is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir, he was.

[Defendant's Exhibit Number 59 was marked for identification by the court reporter.]

THE COURT:  Just a moment, Mr. Moore.  [To a juror]  You okay?

[No verbal response]

THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead, please.

MR. MOORE:  Okay.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   I'm going to show you Defendant's Exhibit Number 59 and ask you if you can identify the person in that photograph and if you can identify the scene where it's taken.

A.   This is a black and white photograph of the Sugar Hill city hall with the Sugar Hill city marshal in front of his unit.

Q.   Okay.  And is that Chris Robertson, the Sugar Hill city marshal in 1993?

A.   Yes, sir, it is.

Q.   Okay.

A.   I don't know when it is, but that's Chris Robertson.

Q.   Okay.  Is that a fair and accurate representation of him?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   I don't guess it's necessary, but is that a fair and accurate representation of the city hall and the police car, also?

A.   Yes, sir.

MR. MOORE:  I would tender Defendant's Exhibit Number 59 at this time, Your Honor.

MR. PORTER:  No objection.

THE COURT:  Defendant's 59 is admitted without objection.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Okay.  And now you told Mike Chapel on the -- he asked you, when the arrest was taking place in the video, were y'all going to continue to investigate; do you remember that?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And you assured him that you would.

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Did y'all go ahead and continue to check out things?

A.   We continued to investigate this case right up till now, yes, sir.

Q.   He gave you some names of some people that might have known where he was or might could provide some help.  Somebody named Van Parker and somebody named Bland Wright.  Did you ever interview either one of those?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   Did anyone else from the Gwinnett County police department?

A.   To my knowledge, they did not.

Q.   And you'd told him you would, though, when he gave you those names?

A.   Yes, and that was the intent.  Yes, sir.

Q.   But you didn't do it?

A.   There was -- I don't recall why that did not occur, but there was some confusion, and it was not done, no, sir.

Q.   Okay.

A.   I think that one -- I think that Investigator Burnette thought that one of the DA's investigators was handling that or -- no, I recall.  Mr. Britt, his first attorney, was going to arrange it for us and never did.  Never got back to us on it.  That's how it happened.  So we, in all of this tremendous amount of information, witnesses had got overlooked eventually, when Mr. Britt never provided that opportunity for us.

Q.   But you knew how to find these people without   Mr. Britt, didn't you?

A.   Probably, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And no effort was made to do it?

A.   Simply because we were expecting him initially to arrange it for us, and then when he failed to do that, it was overlooked, yes, sir.

Q.   At that point, you'd made up your mind and y'all were waiting for him to prove himself innocent, weren't you?

A.   No, sir.  I thought the evidence was quite compelling at that time, and we continued to seek evidence and witnesses and to document that and go where the evidence took us.

Q.   There's approximately twenty-nine other male officers in the Buford precinct up there, are you aware of that, at the time this occurred?

A.   That sounds about right, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And how many uniformed officers were there in Gwinnett County at that time?

A.   In excess of 300.

Q.   Okay.  And --

A.   Well, 300 sworn.  Around 200 of those or so would be uniform officers assigned to uniform duties.

Q.   Okay.  And when you first knew that you had a Gwinnett County police officer involved, you'd had a number of witnesses that had identified a Gwinnett County police car in the road checks --

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  At that time, you understandably focused your attention on that area of the northside precinct; is that a correct statement?

A.   Yes, sir, it was.  We -- we checked with other agencies.  We initially -- we initially thought that -- that this had to be a police officer doing some function or maybe he'd stopped a car earlier there, that type of thing, so we -- when we could not get -- when we could not identify one of our officers as having been there, then we checked with other agencies to see -- state patrol and others to see if they could put a patrol officer in that area.  We were never able to do that.

Q.   Okay.  After you focused on the officers in the northside precinct, you probably -- and tell me if I'm wrong -- you probably focused on people that were on duty that night first.

A.   We -- as I recall, we did check to see who was working that night, but by that time, you know, it had pretty much focused on Chapel by that point based on other evidence that we had.  Good evidence.

Q.   And when did it first focus on Mike Chapel?  When did it turn to him?

A.   About -- just before two a.m. on Saturday, the 17th, the day -- we had continued to investigate the case from that morning when we had discovered the body.  We had done the first road check that night beginning around eight or 8:30.  A number of interviews were being done.  A tremendous number of interviews.  And when one of the friends, and I believe it was Ms. Burel, I'm not certain, but when Investigator Tkacik interviewed her and she told us those things --

Q.   Officer Latty, let me ask you to stop a minute.  There might be a problem here.

MR. MOORE:  Could we approach the bench?

THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

[Counsel approached the bench and the following conference ensued outside hearing of the jury.]

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, my question was when it first focused on him and he's about to get into, I think, hearsay that may be inadmissible.

THE COURT:  Well, I mean, everything -- half the stuff he knows is hearsay.

MR. MOORE:  I don't want to elicit things, though, that can't come in, that's been ruled it can't come in, and I don't know if he knows what the Court's rulings are or not.  You know, I'm afraid he's about   to --

          THE COURT:  Well, if in fact the focus -- you said when did it focus --

MR. MOORE:  I said when.

          THE COURT:  Well, I know but --

MR. PORTER:  Well, Your Honor, in any cross- examination situation, the witness is allowed to explain him answer.

MR. MOORE:  Well, I don't think he can explain the things the judge has ruled inadmissible if I didn't ask that question.

THE COURT:  Well, I'm not so sure.  I mean, if you ask him, well, what did you base your opinion on, why did you go get a warrant?  Well, I mean, most of the stuff he knows it's stuff other officers had told him as a result of coordinating the investigation and supervising.  So I don't know how you ask him, well, how do you do these or how do you know this or when did you -- on what basis did you do this without opening the door of the hearsay upon which he acted.

          MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, what I'm concerned about is him volunteering stuff that's not responsive to my questions.  I'll try to keep my questions where I don't ask things that --

THE COURT:  Okay.

MR. MOORE:  -- but I'm afraid if he doesn't know there's been rulings about hearsay, he's going to inject an unresponsive --

THE COURT:  Well, if your question calls for it, then I think it comes out regardless of the ruling.

MR. MOORE:  Well, but I don't think --

THE COURT:  I mean, if you ask him a question that calls for hearsay, whether it's been ruled out or otherwise or not, I think, if it comes out, it comes out, if you ask him.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, when I asked him when he focused on it, that's not asking him who he talked to and how --

THE COURT:  Okay.  Restate your question and I'll tell him to respond to it.

[Bench conference concluded.]

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, my question is not who you talked to or anything, my question is when did the investigation focus on Mike Chapel, the time?

A.   After receiving that information, it focused on him at that moment.

Q.   Now, are you aware that the photo lineup that was showed to Mr. Kautter only had one officer from the northside precinct in it?

A.   No, sir.  I don't recall who was in it.

Q.   Okay.

A.   Other than Chapel, I don't remember who else was in it.

Q.   Do you know the reason why there was nobody else that worked at the northside precinct in that photo lineup?

A.   Well, when you do a photo lineup, what you're after is somebody -- you know, when you put them in there with your suspect, you want people who look very similar to him.  That's required.  In this particular case, we used police officers, and the police officers we selected were officers that we felt resembled, and I say we, I think Greg Thompson or somebody put that together.  He selected police officers that looked similar to Mike Chapel.  There was no thought given to who those officers were, just that they fit within the photo lineup in an acceptable way.

Q.   So it wasn't because Mike was your suspect that he was included in there and none of the other northside precinct officers were?

A.   Well, he was a suspect, but the selection on who went in there with him was made based on the appearance of the officers, not where they worked or what their name was or anything.

Q.   Weren't there other officers in the northside precinct that appeared similar to him?

A.   Probably, but there probably are a number of officers that appear similar to him, particularly if you're just looking at a shot of his face.

Q.   Before Mike Chapel's arrest, how many officers had been interviewed at the northside precinct?

A.   To my knowledge, none had been interviewed about him as a suspect.  We had talked to those officers repeatedly about information they were receiving or about what their thoughts on this -- on this case was, who might be responsible, who that might be, but we never -- we did not do an official interview with any of the officers prior to the night that we interviewed Chapel.

Q.   So you never went to any of those other officers and said, 'where were you on the night of the 16th, what were you doing?'

A.   No, sir.  No, sir.  We couldn't.  We -- my primary concern that night -- I'm referring to the night of the first day of the investigation when this information was received that pointed us to Mike Chapel.  After several minutes of stunned silence there with the other officers -- we were in a car outside the precinct, four of us.  I was the ranking officer there.  At that point, I instructed those officers that -- I gave them orders that they were not to discuss this case with anybody until we had talked to the chief and got direction on it, because if he was not responsible for this case, we'd destroy his reputation.  We'd hurt him, and we didn't want to do that.

Q.   So you didn't know at the time you arrested him where any of the other officers were or what they were doing on that night?

A.   I think we'd gotten bits and pieces of what was going on that night.  We knew who was working, and we knew about the storm, and we knew of some of their general activities, yes, sir.

Q.   And did you check the log sheets like you told -- like you told Mike you did on the tape?

A.   I'm sure we did, yes, sir.

Q.   I'm going to show you what's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit Number 60 and ask you if you can look at it and if you can identify it.  It's not the same size as it was originally, but see if you can identify that.

A.   This is a police department daily patrol activity summary or what we call a log sheet, for short.  And it has the officer's name, what zone he's assigned to, the shift he works, the date, and the calls that he is dispatched to his activities during the night.

Q.   Okay.  And who's that log sheet for?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to this.  He can't go into contents until it's been identified.  He has to --

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'll --

MR. PORTER:  He has to ask this witness if he's ever seen it before and can identify it.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Just keep it there.  Officer Latty, have you ever seen that log sheet before?

A.   I don't know if I've seen this particular one, no, sir.  I don't know.

Q.   What's -- looking at the date on that --

A.   4/15 --

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, if I may, Mr. Moore --

MR. MOORE:  I didn't ask him to tell me what date.  I just asked him --

MR. PORTER:  Mr. Moore cannot go into the contents of the document until it's been identified.

THE COURT:  I understand.  Restate your question, Mr. Moore.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Would you look -- without telling us what it is, look at the date on it, Officer Latty.  Does that date have any significance in relation to the crime, without saying what it is?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And you said you checked the log sheets with the people up there at the Buford precinct?

A.   Yes, sir.  At some point we checked them, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Now, was Officer Reddy one of the    people --

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to this.  Mr. Moore's going into the contents of this document when it has not been properly identified through the manner of questioning.

THE COURT:  I don't know if he has or not.

MR. MOORE:  I'm not going into the contents.

          THE COURT:  What's your question?

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   My question is, was Officer Reddy's log sheet one of those that was checked?

A.   As far as I recall, yes, sir.

Q.   Did you check it?

A.   I remember looking at them and discussing them.  I don't specifically remember when, but certainly this was a very -- very relevant issue, and it was something that was discussed, and I'm sure it was checked.  But being able to tell you specifically when and what I saw, I can't say that.  But I probably saw it at some point.

Q.   Do you recall telling Officer Chapel in the interview, the taped interview, that you had looked at the log sheets up there before the interview?

A.   I don't specifically remember, but I very well may have.

Q.   Okay.  Do you know whether or not you ever looked at that log sheet in front of you?

A.   I can't say for certain that I did.  I remember that we checked log sheets.  If I didn't, someone else did.  We would have shared that information.  I can't tell you that I've ever seen this log sheet for certain, no, sir.

Q.   Are log sheets kept in the ordinary course of business at the police department?

A.   Yes, sir.  They're done daily.  Yes, sir.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, this witness is not the custodian of records.  Mr. Moore's trying to get this in as a business record.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I haven't tendered it as a business record.  Mr. Porter's jumping ahead with what I'm going to do.

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I've been doing this long enough that I understand the foundation questions.

THE COURT:  I'll allow the question.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   So your testimony is you can't identify that log sheet?

A.   I can't tell you for certain I've ever seen it before, no, sir.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, we've got some subpoenas.  I'll get this in through another witness.

THE COURT:  All right.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Okay.  You told Mike Chapel that you had checked the log sheets up there at the precinct up in Buford of the other officers?

A.   Apparently, I did.  I don't specifically remember it.  I said a lot of things, but I probably did.

Q.   Were there any of the other officers up there that were in that same area that night about the time of the murder?

A.   There were other officers working that were on duty on that shift that night, and one of the things that we have done is try to determine where they were during the course of that night, yes, sir.

Q.   Did you find any officer that was within a mile or so of there about 9:30 that night Ms. Thompson was killed?

A.   Within a mile?  No, sir.

Q.   A mile or two on his log sheets?

A.   No, sir.  The only officers that I know were the closest to that were probably at the precinct there at 20 and 23.

[Mr. Moore presenting to Mr. Porter]

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, we've stipulated to this as an accurate map of the city of Buford.

THE COURT:  What exhibit number is it?

MR. MOORE:  It's not numbered yet, Your Honor. I'm about to get it numbered.

THE COURT:  It's going to be 61?

[Defendant's exhibit was marked for identification by the court reporter.]

MR. MOORE:  It's Defendant's Number 61, Your Honor, and the state has agreed to stipulate that this is an accurate map of the city of Buford and the surrounding areas, Sugar Hill, and some other areas.

THE COURT:  Mr. Porter?

MR. PORTER:  Yes, Your Honor, we've stipulated to that.

THE COURT:  Defendant's 61 is admitted.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, could I get you to come down off the stand, please.

A.   [Complies]

Q.   Could you point out on the map, if you would, to the jury, and you need to stand aside so the jurors can see --

A.   Let me study it first so I can get my bearings.

Q.   Okay.  Sure.

A.   Okay.

Q.   Can you point out to the jury where the murder occurred on the map, if it's on there.

A.   Let's see.  Here's Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, North Avenue, Alton Tucker.  Right in this area here, south of 20 on Peachtree Industrial Boulevard.

Q.   Now, if you would, show the jury where North Avenue is in relation to that.

A.   North Avenue?

Q.   Yes, sir.

A.   I don't remember where North Avenue is.  Okay.  I always think of it as Nelson Brogden.  Right here.

Q.   Are you familiar with it now that I've pointed it out to you?  I don't want to be trying to testify before the jury.  Are you familiar with that road?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And how far away -- are you familiar with North Avenue now that I've pointed it out to you?

A.   Yes, sir.  Right there it is.

Q.   Okay.  And how far away is that from the crime scene?

A.   North Avenue?  About -- probably three-quarters of a mile.

Q.   Okay.  Are you familiar with the Circle K convenience store there on North Avenue?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And how far away is that?

A.   It's right here on the other side of Sycamore Road.  I don't know exactly how far that is.  It's probably about a mile, a little over a mile, a mile and a half, maybe, from there to Peachtree Industrial Boulevard, and then -- you say to the scene down here?

Q.   Yes, sir.

A.   Probably a couple of miles, a mile and a half to two miles total.

Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

[The witness returned to the stand.]

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   And from looking at those log sheets, before you interviewed Officer Chapel, can you tell the jury whether or not another officer was at the Circle K at around 9:30 by his log sheets on the night of Ms. Thompson's murder?

A.   The information that we had was that those officers were in the fire station at the precinct because of the storm, the severe storm that night at that time, which Chapel stated himself.

Q.   Okay.  Now, on the tapes, you told Officer Chapel that Brian Reddy had said he was not at the fire station?

A.   That's right.

Q.   And I believe Brian Reddy gave a written statement to that effect; is that correct?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And that was delivered to you at headquarters, wasn't it?

A.   Yes, sir, it was.  During the course of the interview, yes, sir.

Q.   And who took that statement?

A.   I don't remember.  I think a detective went out and talked to him.  There were a number of interviews going on simultaneously as we had planned.  I don't remember who took the statement.  I remember that somebody -- we sent somebody out to take the statement, and as soon as we got it back, we wanted -- we were wanting to know what they had to say about what was going on that night at that time.

Q.   Okay.  And do you know the reason why Brian Reddy lied?

A.   Well, I don't think he lied.  I think he was confused.  He was off duty that night, and I'm told that he had folks visiting him from New Jersey.  It was some of his relatives.  And that he had drunk some beer that night, which Brian has been known to do a time or two, and I think he got confused.  I don't think he lied at all.  I think I said to Mike on the tape he must have panicked or something when we approached him with this.

Q.   Now, when did you find out that he had not told you the truth?

A.   During the course of the interview when we got statements from some of the other officers, and they confirmed that they had been at the firehouse and that Chapel had been at the firehouse up to a point.  Then we realized it was a mistake.

Q.   Was a subsequent statement taken from Officer Reddy that was correct?

A.   I don't know.  I don't know if that was done that way or not.  I'm sure he was talked to about it.

Q.   Did he talk to you about it?

A.   No, sir, not -- I don't think I talked to him about it.

Q.   Do you know whether or not his supervisor ordered him to write a report about it and he said he wanted to talk to you personally?

A.   Yes, sir.  That's what I was told, but that was about another issue.

Q.   And what was it he wanted to talk to you personally about?

A.   His knowledge of some other of Chapel's activities.

Q.   And he never did write a report, did he?

A.   He never did write an incident report.  He wrote a -- he wrote a supplemental report on the 16th as to what he claimed he remembered about that night.

Q.   And these people that were interviewing people up there at the Buford precinct, were they -- after Mike was arrested, were they asking them where they were and what they were doing on the night of the 15th?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And are there written statements from them to that effect?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And were those provided to us?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, this officer wouldn't know that.  Those were provided through the district attorney's office.

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'll withdraw the question.  That may not be a fair question because -- Mr. Porter is right that --

THE COURT:  I believe so.

MR. MOORE:  -- he wouldn't have knowledge necessarily of whether we were provided those.

THE COURT:  That's a matter you can take up otherwise if you wish.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   But your information is that there were written statements taken from, for instance, Officer Byers?

A.   Well, I may be making an assumption that there was written statements on all of them.  Normally, I mean, procedure is if you go and interview a witness about critical information, you put it in statement form of some type.  On that night, so many of them were being done that involved officers, and we had some high ranking officers helping us with that, then it may be that some of them didn't write -- didn't write out supplements.  I can't say for certain, but I do know that the information was forwarded to us on what they were being told as they conducted interviews.

Q.   But police procedure says when you interview somebody like that you ought to give a written statement, though?

A.   If they have important relevant information, absolutely, yes, sir.

Q.   And this was an important case at that point for the Gwinnett County police department?

A.   The most critical one I've been involved in, yes, sir.

Q.   And do you know whether or not, for instance, Officer Winderweedle was interviewed regarding his whereabouts or what he was doing on the night of the 15th when Ms. Thompson was killed?

A.   I can't say specifically.  He was on another shift, I believe, but I can't sit here and tell you exactly who all was interviewed at that stage.  There was so much going on, I could only keep up with so much of it.  I can't tell you who interviewed who on every case and whether or not statements were written on every case.  We covered every base we possibly could.

Q.   Okay.  And do you know if anybody other than Reddy and Chapel were asked their whereabouts on the night of the 15th and the morning of the 16th?

A.   I'm sure that -- I'm sure they were, that they were asked to respond to where they were or what they were doing, what they knew about what was occurring that night, yes, sir.

Q.   In other words, you would believe that all of the officers that worked for Sergeant Stone would have been interviewed?

A.   As far as I know, yes, sir.  Certainly, the ones who were on duty that night, but as far as I know, they would have been, yes, sir.

Q.   Sergeant Stone was the shift supervisor that night up there in Buford, wasn't he?

A.   He's a --

Q.   I don't know if I'm using the right terminology when I say shift supervisor.  He was the sergeant in charge of the --

A.   He was -- yes, sir, he was in charge of a rotation, as we call it, that night, which consisted of, I don't know, maybe half a dozen patrol officers.

Q.   Okay.  And do you know whether or not any of those officers that were working for him that night were interviewed as to their whereabouts or what they were doing on the night of the murder?

A.   Are you talking about the night that the interview was going on or later down the road?

Q.   Anytime.

A.   The night that we were doing the interview, I know that Stone was interviewed.  Reddy was interviewed because the confusion came in there.  Lieutenant Knight was interviewed and a couple of other people.  That's who I remember that night.  The people who supposedly were there at the firehouse with him or were on duty that night.  Later on, we talked to a large number of people.  I can't sit here and name every one of them.

Q.   Okay.  You and Mike Chapel both in the interview, the videotaped interview, used the term to eliminate people and exclude people.  Do you recall that?

A.   Probably.  I don't recall it specifically, but I probably did.

Q.   And when the people were interviewed up at the Buford precinct, Officer Stone, for example, do you know whether or not the police department was seeking to exclude them by asking where they were and what they were doing that night of the murder?  Or were they just asking for information about Mike Chapel and about what he might have done?

A.   The primary focus was Chapel.  We had not been able to do -- normally, in an investigation of any kind, you want to interview the witnesses as quickly as possible because, you know, people forget things and they get confused about things, and you want the information as early as you can for an effective investigation.  In this particular instance, however, we felt like that it was appropriate to hold off on interviewing the officers because we suspected an officer   and  --

Q.   After he's arrested, though, it's all out then?

A.   After his arrest, then, you know, you talk to everybody.  I mean, once he was called into headquarters and the interview was under way and he was not going to be forewarned that that was coming, then we had people ready to interview the other officers that had not been formerly interviewed, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  After he was arrested, anytime from that time until the time of this trial, have you seen statements from the other officers up there as to where they were or what they were doing on the night of the murder?

A.   I've seen statements.  I've seen a number of statements.  I can't tell you exactly who, no.

Q.   Do you recall any of them?

A.   I don't specifically recall them.  Burnette was the chief investigator, so part of the job of being the lead investigator on an investigation is to keep up with the volumes of paperwork and information that comes in.  And it gets quite overwhelming at times, so that's one of the reasons you have a lead investigator so that all the information can be centralized with him. 

My duties consisted of a number of things.  I had primary responsibility to oversee the investigation and see that it got done, but I also had administrative duties in planning who was going to work and who was going to do what, and I also actually engaged in the investigation because there was so much to do.

          So for that reason, I can't possibly say that I saw every statement or that I handled every statement.  We would have investigative briefings where the investigators involved would come in.  We'd all sit down at one place at one time and make sure that everybody was up to date and was up to speed on what was taking place.  That didn't involve reading statements very often.  That involved the investigator giving you an overview or hitting the high points, so to speak, on what had occurred in the investigation, things that we needed to know as we continued the investigation and continued to focus the investigation.

Q.   Okay.  Now, during the course of the investigation, did you have occasion to run any polygraphs on anyone?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to this.  Admission of a polygraph --

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'm not asking for results.  I'm asking about investigative techniques.  I don't intend to ask for any results.  I'm just asking if he ran any.

THE COURT:  Objection's --

MR. PORTER:  Even the inference of inadmissible evidence would be improper to place before this jury.  Polygraphs are not admissible unless stipulated to by both parties.

MR. MOORE:  I'm not seeking, Your Honor, to introduce any results.  I don't intend to ask him names of anybody he gave them to.  I'm just asking him if they did any.

THE COURT:  Objection's overruled.

BY MR. MOORE:

A.   I think there might have been one done at some point, but it was kind of a peripheral issue, as I recall, if it's the one I'm thinking about.

Q.   Was that on a police officer?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   My question was -- I guess maybe I didn't narrow it down, but were any police officers given polygraphs in connection with this investigation?

A.   No, sir.

Q.   And that's an investigative technique that's used regularly by the police department, isn't it?

A.   You're talking about polygraphs?

Q.   Yes, sir.

A.   I don't.

Q.   But it's used regularly by the police, is my question.

A.   They're used, yes, sir, but I don't use them.

Q.   Okay.  And, in fact, internal affairs uses them regularly when their -- some officer is accused of some misconduct, don't they?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Now, do you recall that after the murder occurred, the road checks were going on up there?  Do you recall that?

A.   Yes, sir.  I was there.

Q.   Were you up there at the road checks?

A.   Yes, sir, I was.

Q.   Okay.  Where were they taking place at?  Where were the officers located?

A.   Directly in front of -- on Peachtree Industrial directly in front of Gwinnco Muffler Shop right there at the driveway where the car had been found.

Q.   And Mike Chapel was one of those officers up there at the crime scene that was conducting the road checks, wasn't he?

A.   The first night he was there, yes, sir.  On Friday night, he was there.

Q.   Do you recall seeing him up there in the driveway with Burnette on the night of the 16th doing road checks?

A.   Yes, sir, I recall seeing him there.  I probably spoke to him there.

Q.   Now, in the videotape, at one point, Officer Chapel takes his keys and puts them up on the table.  Do you remember that?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   They were on some kind of a heavy weight or something on them that was attached to the keys?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   Who took possession of those keys?

A.   I don't remember.  I think -- I think -- I don't recall who took them.

Q.   Did you keep them?

A.   No, sir, I didn't.

Q.   Did you turn them over to the property room or evidence room?

A.   I didn't.  I don't know who took them.  I don't recall who took them.  I think there was some discussion about some of them being his and some of them being departmental keys or car keys or something like that so --

Q.   Okay.  Who went out to his car and got the briefcase?

A.   Sergeant Steve Cline.

Q.   Okay.  And so he had the keys at that point to unlock it?

A.   Yes.  He had the car keys at that point, yes, sir.  We took possession of the car keys that night, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  And where was the car stored at for the next few days?

A.   The car was where he parked it that night when he came in, which was in a parking space in the parking lot just off the entrance to the investigation section there.

THE COURT:  Is this the patrol car, Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Yes, sir, Your Honor.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   This is unit 197, Mike Chapel's patrol car, is what I'm referring to.

A.   Yes, sir.  It remained where he parked it and secured it until during the day on Saturday when the search warrant was executed on it.  After the search warrant was executed, it was secured and, as I remember, it stayed in that spot.  I don't -- I don't know exactly.  I believe it stayed in that spot for some time after that.

Q.   Who got the search warrant?

A.   Burnette signed it because he was the chief investigator.  He signed all the warrants as the --

Q.   Did you ever see it?

A.   The one for the car?

Q.   Yes, sir.

A.   I don't recall seeing it.  I had another one that I executed, and I saw that one.  I don't recall seeing the one for the car, no, sir.

Q.   Okay.  In fact, there wasn't any search warrant on the car, was there?

A.   That morning there was a search warrant, as I understand.  There was a search warrant for the house, the car, the gym, and his lockers at the precinct.  That's my understanding, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Now, do you know what date the car was searched again?

A.   You're talking about when the blood was recovered?

Q.   Well, whenever -- if it was searched again before then, I want to know about that, too.  I've got a calendar here that might help you.

A.   No, sir.  I don't -- I don't recall.  I was never involved in any of the searches of the car, so I can't tell you.

Q.   Okay.  So you don't know about that?

A.   Not exactly, no, sir.

Q.   You know it was several days later though?

A.   As I recall, it was several days later, yes, sir.

Q.   Who released the car back into service; do you know that?

A.   I -- I guess it was an administrative decision.  It's county property, and it was a good car and it needed to be used, so at some point it was returned to the fleet.

[Pause in proceedings]

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore, while we're pausing, I think now will maybe a good time to take ten minutes and then we'll proceed on until about five or 5:15 at a good stopping point.  We'll take ten minutes at this point.

[The jury was excused from the courtroom for the recess.]

THE COURT:  You can come down if you like, Captain Latty.  We'll take ten minutes.

[Break taken]

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, with the Court's permission, we're going to call a couple of witnesses out of order because they've traveled some distance to get here today, and we'd like to get them in before -- today.

THE COURT:  Any order you wish.  You want to put them up this afternoon, is that what you're saying?

MR. PORTER:  That's the key, Your Honor.  There are three witnesses after Investigator Latty.  They have to do with the chain of custody and a document identification.

THE COURT:  Is that a matter of just identification for chain of custody?

MR. PORTER:  They're chain witnesses.  Yes, sir, it's a matter of identification.

THE COURT:  Let me ask -- would you approach the bench, please?

[Counsel approached the bench and the following conference ensued outside hearing of the jury.]

THE COURT:  How much longer do you think you're going to be, Johnny?

MR. MOORE:  Depending on his answers, Judge, maybe another half an hour.

THE COURT:  My concern is if we continue on with this witness at this point, maybe then along about five, 5:15, we've got things set up for the juror's supper and all that.  It's set up and in gear and if we stay until seven or eight o'clock tonight, that's not good.

MR. PORTER:  No, Your Honor.  What I anticipate is these are three witnesses -- the nurse that drew the defendant's blood, and it's just part of the chain, but the problem is he's --

THE COURT:  Well, what we might do is interrupt this witness, if nobody objects, and get them out of the way as far as the chain of custody goes and get them on out of the way and then however long this goes, if we don't get through with Captain Latty, which we may not do anyway, then recommence on Monday with his cross or his redirect or whatever.

MR. PORTER:  That's entirely up to Mr. Moore and Ms. Rogan, Your Honor.  They have him on cross.  I don't want to -- that's up to them.  I can't --

MR. MOORE:  How long do you think your witnesses are going to take?

MR. PORTER:  It's Kathy Murray who drew Mike's blood, it's Kathy West who received it at the crime lab and it's Tammy Hobbs, Gwinnett evidence.

THE COURT:  All right.  So you probably got altogether five minutes worth of direct on them.  And I guess -- I don't know about the cross.  Is that likely to be a lengthy cross or not, do you think?

MR. MOORE:  I don't think so, Your Honor, but, you know, depending on what they answer, you never know what's going to come out.

THE COURT:  Yeah.

MS. ROGAN:  Ms. Hobbs isn't from out of town, is she?

MR. PORTER:  No.  No.  We want to get --

THE COURT:  Why don't we do this.  Why don't we go for about a half hour and if we're not -- if it looks like we're going to be pushing five --

MR. MOORE:  I may be finished with Latty by that time.

THE COURT:  If we're through, it's not a problem.  And if we're not through, then I'll entertain your request to take them out of order, and we'll see where we are.

MR. PORTER:  And then, Your Honor, the only thing -- the one that I can't -- the one that has to testify is Jackie Kinlaw who will identify the pawn document.  He does not remember the transaction, but he's the custodian of record.

MS. ROGAN:  Which one, the rifle?

MR. PORTER:  Yeah.

MS. ROGAN:  Okay.

THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, we'll proceed on another thirty minutes or so and then we'll see where we are.

MR. MOORE:  Okay.

THE COURT:  Okay.

[Bench conference concluded.]

THE COURT:  Bring the jury back, please.

          [The jury returned to the courtroom and proceedings continued, as follows.]

     CROSS EXAMINATION -- Resumed

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, you discussed the photographic lineup with Mike Chapel the night you interviewed him on the videotape, didn't you?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And do you recall telling him that if a witness looked at a photographic lineup and said, 'Well, I just don't know, but, you know, if I had to pick somebody, this one's the most likely.'  And you said, 'You know, that ain't worth a lot.'  Do you remember saying that?

A.   I remember talking about the photo lineup, yes, sir.

Q.   Okay.  Well, what I just read to you; do you remember that?

A.   I remember saying something about if they had difficulty picking the person out and it was a process of elimination, that's what I had in mind, that, yes, that's usually not very good.

Q.   Let me show you the transcript and see if that will refresh your memory.  Let me point you to here, Line 22 on Page 75.

A.   Uh-huh [affirmative].

Q.   Okay.  Now, when you gave your -- when you said that, in reference to showing it to somebody, if a witness said, 'Well, I just don't know, but, you know, if I had to pick somebody, this one's the most likely,' and you said, 'You know, it ain't worth a lot,' was that you true opinion?

A.   If they picked one by the process of elimination, I don't think that's very good, no.  I was -- people react to photographic lineups in different ways, and that's one of the things that you watch when they make an identification is to -- is to how good they -- how well they do it, how quickly they recognize the person.  I mean, if they immediately respond to one, that's better than if they study it a long time, in my opinion.  Some other people might see it differently.

Q.   Okay.  So if they studied it for a couple of minutes and said, 'If I had to pick somebody, that's him,' is that worth a lot?

A.   It depends on -- I guess it depends on the person and how deliberate they are and that sort of thing, but what I had in mind was if they have difficulty picking one out and they'll -- they go through a process of elimination and say, 'Well, it ain't him because of this or it ain't him because of that,' and they're left with one, well, then, that must be him, if they're making an assumption that the person's on there when they can't identify him was what I had in mind.

Q.   I'm going to show you what's been marked as Number D-38.  It's a photograph.  Would you see if you can identify that?

A.   It's a photograph of Officer or Corporal Stratameyer.  Jeff, I believe.  I'm trying to think of his first name.  Jeff Stratameyer.

Q.   Okay.  If a person had looked at a photo lineup and said, 'If I had to pick somebody, it's that person,' and picked a particular photograph, and then when they were shown the photograph in front of you, Number D-38, and they said they couldn't be sure it wasn't him, would that affect your concern about the lineup?

MR. PORTER:  Your Honor, I'm going to object.  This is asking Investigator Latty to comment on the credibility of another witness, and I don't think that Investigator Latty can comment on that.

THE COURT:  Mr. Moore?

MR. MOORE:  Your Honor, I'll withdraw the question.

BY MR. MOORE:

Q.   Officer Latty, D-38, doesn't Officer Stratameyer look a lot like Mike Chapel?

A.   Not to me, but then I know him.  He don't look a lot like him to me.  Certainly not in person.

Q.   Does this photograph look a lot like him?

A.   It looked enough -- it's similar enough that you can put it in a photo lineup, but to say it looks like him, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't say it looks like him.  There are similarities.

Q.   Would that be a good picture to put in a photo lineup with Mike Chapel?

A.   A very good one, yes, sir.

Q.   Now, are you familiar with a .38 caliber shell casing that was recovered up at Buford by Weldon Seay?

A.   By who?

Q.   Weldon Seay.

A.   No, sir, I'm not.

Q.        Are you familiar with a .38 caliber gun that was recovered from the American Inn around 1993, December 1993?

A.   Yes, sir.

Q.   And was that gun ever tested?

A.   No.  I believe that gun was all rusty when it was found.

Q.   Was it ever taken to the crime lab to determine if it could be tested?

A.   I can't remember specifically.  If you're referring to the one that the fellow who was the son of the manager found that behind a Dumpster or something and turned over to officers; is that the one you're referring to?

Q.   It was Mike Plunkett that found it up at the American Inn in Buford.

A.   Yes, sir.  As I recall, that gun was rusty and it had been -- had been out for a very long time.  It was all rusted up.

Q.   My question is was there any attempt made to take it to the crime lab to see if they could learn anything from it?

A.   I don't know, but probably not because it was in such horrible condition.

Q.   Who made the decision that it was in such horrible condition?

A.   Well, I don't know.  If a gun has been out so long that it's rusted up and you know that the bore's rusted out, you can get a pretty good idea that probably you're not going to be able to do much with it.

Q.   Did you ever see that gun?

A.   I don't recall seeing it, no, sir.

Q.   Were you told about that gun by the -- the officers that found it?

A.   Yes, sir.  I went and talked to the manager when we got -- when we got that piece of information, I went and talked to the manager, the lady who worked there, and got all that information and we tracked it down and found out who had recovered the gun, the circumstances.  It had all been handled and documented by the officers.  And as I recall, after we identified the officers and got the information, it was something that was of no value to us in the investigation.

Q.   And who made that determination that it was no value to you?

A.   I suppose we did as the investigators.

Q.   Who is we?

A.   Me, Burnette, that it was -- and I don't know.  I don't know for sure the gun wasn't sent.  I don't think it was.  As I recall, the gun was -- was old and rusted out if we're talking about the same gun.

Q.   Okay.  Did anybody ever -- did any investigators ever see that gun, to your knowledge?

A.   I can't -- I can't say for sure.  I -- all I remember is getting the information, and initially it sounded like it was something we needed, and we went through the process of getting all the information on it.  I don't really remember what -- what happened to the gun.

Q.   What does it mean if it says on a report 'forward to CID' and that's checked?

A.   Well, we normally, if we have found property, we get those reports or get copies of those reports and, particularly, if it might be related to a case, a gun is something that if we -- if an officer recovers a gun, for instance, then that's something that they write a report on for -- a recovered property report, and then it's forwarded to us for us to look at in case it might be somehow related to some case we're working on or to try to find the owner in some instances.

Q.   Okay.  My question is, the term 'forward to CID,' what does that mean?  If an officer puts that on his incident report --